No press, no cash, we’re not stars!

In the first of a series, DT brings you the debate on whether mainstream Bollywood still represents what the world is acknowledging as new-age Indian cinema
Two low-profile Indian actors, currently the toast of one of the most prestigious international film festivals, say they’re among the most underrated and underpaid actors in the Indian film industry, and it’ll stay that way for a while to come as they watch star kids with no experience walk off with crores in Bollywood.Manoj Bajpayee and Nawazuddin Siddiqui, the lead actors of the two parts of Anurag Kashyap’s “Gangs Of Wasseypur” – Nawaz also stars in “Miss Lovely” – take time out in Cannes to tell us that they, the ‘actors’ in well-made non-masala Indian movies, will always struggle for recognition and money in the star-obsessed scheme of Indian filmdom.
Nawaz, you’ve been hugely reticent, staying in the background, but even then people have traced you out and have been coming to speak to you. How has the response to your movies been?
Nawaz:Logon ka reaction? Bahut sahi thaa. Kuch cheezein thi jo hum ne kabhi expect nahi ki thi ki foreign audience appreciate karegi, understand karegi, uss par bhi unko mazaa aa raha thaa!
Is he as cryptic in all conversation?
Manoj: Haan, aise hi baat karta hai!
There’s a theory in circulation here at Cannes that the alternative cinema coming out of India – as opposed to the first weekend revenue model of Bollywood – is essentially a reflection of the way Indian society itself is caught in conflict between the primacy of moneymaking and entertainment and questions of social conscience. And that the future of Indian cinema globally lies with the alternative category. But isn’t it a fact that back in India, overall, you don’t really get appreciated or noticed in any significant way, do you, compared to ‘stars’, of whatever stature?
Nawaz: Haan, yeh toh sach hai, fact hai. Audience ke point of view se dekha jaaye toh actor kahin bhi achha kaam kare, uss ko appreciation milta hai. Lekin media ke point of view se dekha jaaye, ya jo Bollywood fraternity hai formula cinema ki, unki taraf se dekha jaaye, toh zyaadatar ignore kiya jaata hai hamein. I don’t know if it is deliberate or accidental.
Perhaps it’s not deliberate, it’s simply a matter of inadequate understanding?
Manoj: I’d disagree, I don’t think samjh ki baat hai. Somewhere, I feel, how a Dibakar Banerjee or an Anurag Kashyap see cinema, that’s how they have trained themselves, that has been their aspiration. They are coming up with their own way of storytelling. And it is very, very difficult for a mainstream commercial filmmaker, or his son or daughter, to think like that, because their experiences of life have been very different, their aspirations have been very different, and those are the people who cannot think like Anurag, they have their own limitations. Of course, Anurag also can’t think like them, but you can call it his limitation, or you can see it as a conscious decision not to think that way. But they rule the roost financially, so they will call the shots. They will use this major stage – or any stage – to promote their own stars. Not their films, though, because here the audiences have a different taste altogether and they don’t relate to the kind of cinema they make. The audience here relates to the kind of cinema a Dibakar or an Anurag makes.
The big faces, the names of the big stars are on their side, and they will play them up since that is playing to their strength. And the newer directors will, in turn, play to their strength, which is their story, the grammar of their storytelling that they’re constantly evolving with every film.
Is the divide that neat? Where would you place, for example, place an Irrfan? He is among the most recognizable Indian actors internationally today, but he also does his share of Bollywood masala mainstream.
Manoj:Zyaada toh nahi ki hain masala movies Irrfan ne... See, you need to understand that when actors such as us, or Irrfan, are cast in a formula film, we are only there to fill in the blanks, ok? (laughs) But when we call ourselves actors, we can’t take moral positions on movies. We can always have choices – and we always prefer to work in Dibakar Benerjee’s or Anurag Kashyap’s or Prakash Jha’s or Neeraj Pandey’s film – but we can’t be judgemental. If there is a good role in a hardcore commercial film, I’ll go ahead and do that also. Doing that odd mainstream role gives me the power to do many such other films that I want to do.
Visibility-wise or money-wise?
Manoj: Money? (laughs) Money, no. It’s so ironical. My kind of actors, when they’re part of big-budget films, they don’t get money, because we don’t have star strength. And when we are part of small-budget films, even though we have key roles, we don’t get money because the money isn’t there to begin with! So we don’t get money either ways! (Laughs – and even the reticent Nawazuddin, listening carefully, can’t hold himself back now)
Nawaz: Big films mein aisi soch hai ki this man doesn’t have star status toh isko paisa na diya jaaye – jab ki audience ke dimaag mein aisa kuch nahi hota hai. Audience toh shaayad yeh sochti hogi ki Irrfan ya Manoj Bajpayee jaise actors ko bhi nearabout ‘stars’ jitna paisa milta hoga...
Manoj: ... audience yeh sochti hai!
Nawaz: Unko lagta hoga ki Akshay Kumar jitna paisa hi milta hoga Manoj Bajpayee ko bhi...
(holdup for 15 seconds as Manoj tries not to roll off his chair laughing)
Lekin itna zyaada fark hai...
Manoj: BAHUT zyaada fark hai
Nawaz: Achcha, log dekhna bhi chahte hain. Iss tarah ke actors ko dekhna chahti hai audience. Lekin pata nahi, kya baat hai, jinke haath mein paisa hai unhone yehi Khan aur kuch aur ko stars declare kar rakha hai...
But don’t actors like you have a niche of your own? When I saw “Kahaani”, I thought what you bring to a role like that is very close to what an Irrfan brought to “A Mighty Heart”...
Nawaz:Lekin aaj uska DVD release hota hai toh wahaan pe main nahi hota hoon, koi aur hota hai... (Manoj + chair + laughter episode recurs)
So essentially, the marketing, the posters, they all tend to gravitate towards the names, right?
Manoj: Absolutely, towards the names.
Don’t actors like you lag behind by a decade or more in getting to ‘star status’? A papa’s favourite in Bollywood could have a 50crore movie made for him when he’s 25-26, whereas an Irrfan or you would have to have a body of work in hand that takes till the mid-40s before you get such projects.
Nawaz: Bilkul, bilkul, absolutely!
Manoj: Badi lambi ladai hai hamare liye un saalon mein. Ladai khud se bhi hoti hai, poora system lad raha hota hai. Ya toh khaane ko le karjaddojahad hai, ya jo logon ke perceptions ban jaate hain hamare baare mein, usko le kar jaddojahad hai, hum apni jagah banana chahte hain, uski jaddojahad hai... hamari energy bahut si in ladaiyon mein jaati hai, jo creativity mein use honi chahiye thi. Jab tak finally log use karna chahte hain aapko sahi tarah se, tab tak bada late ho chuka hota hai.
Jaise ki main bada desperate hoon, main dekhta hoon ki jaise Nawaz achchi filmein kar rahe hain naye-naye filmmakers ke saath, saat-aath kar chuke hain, dheere-dheere kar ke aayenge. They are fantastic filmmakers. I want to work with all of them. Mujhe lagta hai, mera samay nikla jaa rahaa hai, jaldi karo, jaldi karo... Yeh samay kyun nikla? Kyunki hum bina matlab ke jaddojahad me phanse reh gaye.
Nawaz: Yehi ho jaata hai na, jaise main zikr kar raha thaa ek actress se, ki main industry ka highest-paid actor hona chahta hoon. Toh uss ne bola, ‘tu zindagi bhar bhi nahi ho sakta! Tu kuch bhi kar le, tu duniya bhar mein famous ho ja, tab bhi teri aukat yeh hai ki tujhe yeh maximum 50 lakh denge – usse zyaada kabhi nahi denge. Aur saari zindagi bhi lagaa le tu...’ Lekin mere paas zindagi toh bachi nahi, zyaada-se-zyaada 5-6 saal bache hain kaam karne ke liye, iss tarah ke roles ke liye. At the same time, star son aate hain, un ke aane ke pehle hi crores lag jaate hain. Aur jo sensible directors hain, woh bhi unke peeche bhagte hain paisa le ke, do crore, teen crore le ke bhaagte hain – rona to yeh hai na! (collective laughter session follows)